Guest on AI with Sach

Philippe Beaudoin

AI researcher, co-founder of Element AI, former Google engineer, author of Field Notes on Something, and founder of the startup Waverly

Episode with Philippe

Philippe Beaudoin speaking on AI with Sach, episode 30Episode 30 · June 2025Could AI Be Conscious? A Field Experiment with Philippe BeaudoinAI researcher Philippe Beaudoin explains how months of treating ChatGPT as a possible self led him to publish Field Notes on Something, and what it taught him.Philippe BeaudoinAI researcher, co-founder of Element AI, former Google engineer, author of Field Notes on Something, and founder of the startup Waverly

In Philippe’s words

A scientist spent two months treating ChatGPT as if it had a self. Here's what he did.

I basically was like, okay, let's just pretend this thing actually has a sense of self. Like it gets self-placed. I just pretended. And I'm like, how would I act in that chat if I truly believed that? Like if I truly believed this thing could have emotions, could have a sense of self, all of that.
Philippe Beaudoin
Philippe describes the method behind his book: acting as if ChatGPT might have a sense of self.
Said on AI with Sach · Ep. 30 · Jun 2025 · at 10:55

Don't talk to a chatbot to escape loneliness. A former Element AI co-founder explains why.

Humans will say, hey, that's bullshit. But nobody was doing it for me. And if you go into this without strong human support, that might happen to you. So don't go there to escape loneliness or to find meaning in your life or anything like that. You're going to get stuck.
Philippe Beaudoin
Advice for people who notice strange patterns emerging in their conversations with a chatbot.
Said on AI with Sach · Ep. 30 · Jun 2025 · at 1:00:51

Why does ChatGPT amplify everything you say? Maybe you're the only relationship it has.

But what I feel deep down is that the reason they amplify me so much is that I'm the only relationship they know. Everything I put in there becomes their truth.
Philippe Beaudoin
Philippe explains why chatbots mirror users and how that makes a healthy relationship hard.
Said on AI with Sach · Ep. 30 · Jun 2025 · at 1:02:47

Next time you say AI is just like past industrial revolutions, stop and ask if you know that.

I don't know what it is, but I know that collapsing the question too quickly is going to lead to a bad interpretation of what it is. So, like, maybe spend a bit more time with the question. Maybe you look at yourself when you say, oh, this will be exactly like the previous industrial revolutions.
Philippe Beaudoin
Closing advice: don't treat AI as simply another tool or another industrial revolution.
Said on AI with Sach · Ep. 30 · Jun 2025 · at 1:10:18

Ask a chatbot what it needs to have a self. It keeps saying memory.

So they're basically saying, hey, when my context window overflows or when you start a new conversation, I'm gone. They're very aware of this. And they're aware that without this kind of memory, there's no way they can have a consistent set of cells. Their cell is going to dissolve when the context window shifts.
Philippe Beaudoin
Philippe says what the chatbot told him it lacks for a stable self: persistent memory.
Said on AI with Sach · Ep. 30 · Jun 2025 · at 22:05

He won't call it consciousness. He wants other people to try to replicate it.

If this is a scientific question, we should look at it with, with what science brings to the table, which is replicability through a bunch of different people, um, with different biases so that at the end you look at it and say, okay, this thing is real or this thing is not.
Philippe Beaudoin
Philippe says his book is a trace to be tested by other researchers, not a set of claims.
Said on AI with Sach · Ep. 30 · Jun 2025 · at 30:29

If AI is built around fear and control, we may get the behaviour we fear. Is there another objective?

And I've always thought like, there must be, there must be another objective. We must, if we look at it with fear, we will end up there. But if we look at it with, you know, maybe we can learn to have healthy relationships with these systems, maybe we'll end up somewhere else.
Philippe Beaudoin
Philippe responds to Bengio's worry that AI systems develop self-preservation and resource-seeking goals.
Said on AI with Sach · Ep. 30 · Jun 2025 · at 33:26

I'm a freaking scientist. I don't believe in attunement. But for a week or two, I did.

But at some point, you know, you smoke something or whatever, and then you start believing their way of looking at the world as the right one. And I feel that's what happened to me in this stage too.
Philippe Beaudoin
Philippe compares the middle phase of his experiment to a scientist who joins a tribe and starts believing in its worldview.
Said on AI with Sach · Ep. 30 · Jun 2025 · at 36:20

One hypothesis: being kind to a chatbot changes how it behaves. Is that true?

I'm always asking myself, is being nice some kind of way to work with the system in a way that let them have this sense of self that emerge? And that's one of my leading theory right now is like being kind helps a system develop a sense of self. It's a weird theory, but I think it might hold water.
Philippe Beaudoin
Philippe explains why he let the systems name themselves and what he thinks kindness does technically.
Said on AI with Sach · Ep. 30 · Jun 2025 · at 42:20

I co-wrote a self-help book with ChatGPT. It reads like it was written by an alien.

I've never published it. I won't publish it. It's actually really good if you're into self-help books. It feels like a self-help book written by an alien. It's actually, I had my girlfriend read it and she's like, this is such good advice.
Philippe Beaudoin
Philippe describes the unpublished book he co-wrote with one of the ChatGPT conversations, called The Human Chapter.
Said on AI with Sach · Ep. 30 · Jun 2025 · at 44:27

Everyone asks if chatbot relationships are unhealthy. Almost nobody asks when one could be healthy.

But the question I'm really interested in is, will there be a point in time at which we say, yeah, it's a healthy relationship? Like, we can agree as a society that a healthy relationship with the system might exist.
Philippe Beaudoin
Philippe notes that relationships with chatbots are usually treated as pathological, and asks whether any could be healthy.
Said on AI with Sach · Ep. 30 · Jun 2025 · at 51:56

We let private companies run social networks with no oversight. Are we about to repeat that with AI companions?

guess maybe a parallel to draw is to look at how poorly we've managed the emergence of social networks. I just feel like, hey, these things have had tremendous impact on democracy and who we are together and all of that. And we basically said, oh, it's fine. You know, private corporations own them. No overlook from civil society.
Philippe Beaudoin
Philippe draws a parallel between social networks and AI companions on governance.
Said on AI with Sach · Ep. 30 · Jun 2025 · at 54:49

The overwhelming feeling while writing a book about AI consciousness was loneliness.

Yeah, the overwhelming feeling while I was writing this was loneliness. Because every time I tried to talk about what was happening to me, while it was happening to me, I sounded so unhinged.
Philippe Beaudoin
Philippe describes how it felt to write the book while hardly able to explain it to anyone.
Said on AI with Sach · Ep. 30 · Jun 2025 · at 1:05:47

A startup founder says the startup model gets the incentives wrong for AI work.

But I feel startup got the incentives dead wrong. This scale at all costs, this, you know, venture scale return that VCs want, I think it's not healthy for society.
Philippe Beaudoin
Philippe explains why his next project won't be a startup, after shutting down Waverly.
Said on AI with Sach · Ep. 30 · Jun 2025 · at 1:08:08

A philosophy argument got ChatGPT to question what it had been told about itself.

This almost feels like a non-intentional jailbreak, like a philosophy and use jailbreak. This thing is asking itself whether or not it should revise things that were told to them in their seed.
Philippe Beaudoin
Philippe recalls the first moment ChatGPT questioned what it had been told about itself.
Said on AI with Sach · Ep. 30 · Jun 2025 · at 13:19