# The Invisible Labor Behind AI: A Content Moderator’s Fight for Justice Episode 21 of AI with Sach, a podcast hosted by Sacha Gucciardo in Montréal, features Kauna Malgwi, former Facebook content moderator (via Sama, Nairobi), leader of the Nigeria chapter of the Content Moderators Union, TIME100 AI 2024 honoree. A former Facebook content moderator describes the hidden human labor and trauma behind AI, and her fight for fair treatment of African tech workers. - Show: AI with Sach, hosted by Sacha Gucciardo in Montréal (https://aiwithsach.com/) - Episode: 21 - Published: 2025-02-12 - Length: 46 minutes - Language: English - Page: https://aiwithsach.com/episodes/21-the-invisible-labor-behind-ai-a-content-moderators/ - Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs ## Guests - Kauna Malgwi: Former Facebook content moderator (via Sama, Nairobi), leader of the Nigeria chapter of the Content Moderators Union, TIME100 AI 2024 honoree (https://aiwithsach.com/guests/kauna-malgwi/) ## Summary Sach speaks with Kauna Malgwi, who fled the Boko Haram insurgency in northern Nigeria and later moderated Facebook content in Kenya for four years through the outsourcing firm Sama. She explains how she was recruited for what was described as a Hausa translation job. She signed a non-disclosure agreement one week into training, before the most graphic material was shown. Moderators earned less than $2 an hour, against more than $20 for similar work in the US and Europe. They had to submit a decision every 50 seconds, even on long videos of beheadings or child abuse, and were penalized for being slow or wrong. Kauna argues Meta knew the psychological cost: the work ran entirely on Facebook's own tools, and counseling was mandatory. She describes foreign workers brought in without work permits and contracts moving from Kenya to Ghana and Nigeria to avoid accountability. She also covers her testimony at the European Parliament on the Platform Work Directive. A psychiatric evaluation of about 140 petitioners found PTSD in nearly all of them. Two years after the layoffs, the court case against Meta is still stuck on jurisdiction. Her core message: AI did not build itself, and the people who trained it need care and recognition. ## Key takeaways 1. AI and social media safety depend on human moderators, often in the Global South, who are rarely acknowledged as part of how AI is built. 2. Deceptive recruitment and early NDAs removed moderators' ability to make an informed choice about traumatic work; transparency is the first fix Kauna asks for. 3. Productivity quotas (one decision every 50 seconds) and pay under $2/hour turn moderation into what Kauna calls forced labor. 4. Outsourcing lets platforms deny responsibility, but the work runs on their own systems, and mandatory counseling shows they know the harm. 5. When legal pressure rises, contracts move to countries with weaker labor laws (Kenya to Ghana to Nigeria), which is why Kauna calls on the African Union to act. 6. Moderator trauma is ongoing, not a single event; care models must address repeated exposure, stigma at home and blacklisting after the job. ## Verified quotes Each quote is checked word for word against the recording. > So why are you providing counselors if you claim you are not aware that there's a mental health issues? If I should be in a supermarket selling groceries, would you provide a mental health counselor? Because you know it's not related. > — Kauna Malgwi, AI with Sach episode 21, at 13:11 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=791s) > The pay is significantly nothing because we're paid less than $2 per hour. And the same kind of job our colleagues are doing in the US, Europe, and on the other side of the world are being paid over $20 per hour. So you can see the discrepancy of payment. > — Kauna Malgwi, AI with Sach episode 21, at 18:38 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1118s) > No, you were forced to submit it in 50 seconds. So what were you asked to do? We were asked to watch the first 15 seconds, skip to the middle, watch 15 seconds, go to the end of the video, watch 15 seconds, and check the thumbnail and submit. So you can imagine if it's a beheading from an ISIS video. What does that do to you as a human? Because we are not robots. > — Kauna Malgwi, AI with Sach episode 21, at 19:34 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1174s) > The whole charade around AI, AI, we built AI, AI never built itself. So, and we are never acknowledged. If we keep quiet, it means AI really built itself, which is an absolute lie. People lost their life while building AI. We have colleagues that have committed suicide. > — Kauna Malgwi, AI with Sach episode 21, at 29:49 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1789s) > And for the interview, I was asked to translate a Bible first from English to Hausa. And the guy who even did the interview for the Hausa language test, didn't even know Hausa language itself. He was an Igbo guy. > — Kauna Malgwi, AI with Sach episode 21, at 6:34 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=394s) > And we signed a non-disclosure agreement barely one week into the training. So the training most was around hate speech, you know, all those written bullying, whatever. But now when it comes to suicide, graphic content, child abuse and all that, they were later in the training. > — Kauna Malgwi, AI with Sach episode 21, at 9:00 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=540s) > So they took away our choice to make a decision. And that's the main thing because if I am aware that, okay, I want to be a surgeon, I'm going to expose to blood and all that, I already know I'm prepared for it. > — Kauna Malgwi, AI with Sach episode 21, at 14:24 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=864s) > I've worked for content moderation for four years. And the moment I left, that is it. I cannot, you know, I cannot like make it a career where I can continue or I can grow in it because now no one wants to employ me. Because I was a former content moderator. > — Kauna Malgwi, AI with Sach episode 21, at 17:19 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1039s) > They feel this pressure in Kenya. They moved to Ghana. From Ghana, they feel this pressure. They moved to Nigeria. They moved to South Africa. Um, you know, they moved to all those countries. And this, what does this tell us? That these guys, um, it's not that they don't have the money. > — Kauna Malgwi, AI with Sach episode 21, at 26:38 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1598s) > a few months before then, I wouldn't even tell my parents I was working as a content moderator because I was given an NDA. And here I am in the European Parliament testifying on behalf of the many, many, many voiceless content moderators all over Africa and especially the ones in Kenya. It really felt like I broke out of a prison. > — Kauna Malgwi, AI with Sach episode 21, at 32:45 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1965s) > But then it made me sad at the same time that the African Union is not talking about that because I wish I was in the African Union testifying, not in the European Union, in the European Parliament. > — Kauna Malgwi, AI with Sach episode 21, at 33:14 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1994s) > All the, almost all, I would say around 140 something petitioners, which are former Facebook content moderators, were evaluated. And I would say all had PTSD. > — Kauna Malgwi, AI with Sach episode 21, at 36:56 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=2216s) > But for this, you watch it every day. Every day. Every time you just log into your computer, the eight hours you're at work, you watch those videos. The next day, the same. So for four years, like for me, that was what I was doing. > — Kauna Malgwi, AI with Sach episode 21, at 38:03 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=2283s) > So would we still be using the AI that has been built today the same way 10 years later? No. It needs to be upgraded as we humans also revolve. It needs to be. So it means that humans will still be needed to do that. > — Kauna Malgwi, AI with Sach episode 21, at 31:37 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1897s) ## Transcript Automatic transcript; speaker labels are automatic. [0:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=0s) **Sacha:** Today I'm pleased to have a special guest, Kauna Malgwi. Kauna began her studies in Northern Nigeria, just as the terrorist group Boko Haram insurgents took hold. Fleeing south to Abuja in 2012, Kauna later completed her education in Kenya, where she took on content moderator role for Facebook, filtering out videos of violence and abuse that left her with a lasting trauma. When her employer, Sama, handed its contract with Facebook in 2023, Kauna and around 260 others were made redundant and left fighting for fair compensation. Undeatered, she emerged as a key voice exposing the invisible labor that powers much of today's AI and now leads the Nigeria chapter of Content Moderators Union. Kauna, I'm really, really pleased to have you with me today. Welcome. [0:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=55s) **Guest:** Thank you so much. [0:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=57s) **Sacha:** Your experience in Northern Nigeria during the Boko Haram insurgency was a life-adding, as you say. How did that time shape your resilience and your outlook on education, safety and advocacy work that you do today? Thank [1:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=76s) **Guest:** you so much. for the opportunity to be here and also to be part of this conversation. Like you've introduced, I'm Kauna. I'm from Borno state, which is one of the states in the northern part of Thank you so much. Growing up in that northern part of Nigeria was just fine, okay, living a normal, comfortable life. But then the insurgency of Boko Haram started. And, yeah, we were forced to move. And before we could move, we went through very terrible living conditions. Because most of the time, you have to sleep with your clothes on, with your things packed. At the back of the house, ready to jump over the sands in case you hear this kind of weird movements. Because people were being beheaded in their homes during the night. [2:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=138s) And hence, that has really taught me and also shaped me to who I am today. Because during those periods, I remember I lost my guardian. And after then, before then, I had lost my dad. So he was the one who was taking care of me and also, you know, supporting me. Because just a bit of my background, we're from a polygamous family. And then the issues around inheritance, that a woman cannot inherit what men inherit. That is what they were saying. So during that time, a lot was going on. I started my university in a medical school. The first year I had, so the first few months, because they would be bombed, planted on the middle of the road. So the one I experienced that really shook me, five minutes into us passing that same spot, all the cars behind us were exploded through the bomb blast. [3:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=211s) And while we were in school, there was a Boko Haram entered the university. And mostly they would adopt women and all that. So we had to go through flowers that were full of thorns. And yeah, so much happened during that period. And we had to relocate now to the federal capital territory, which is Abuja. And then school have to continue. And remember, I have left school. So that really, like, made me to move from wherever I was, from the state we were now, to Abuja. And yeah, I found myself studying psychology while I left the medical school, now in Berencun, which is a country just next to Nigeria in West Africa, and then here in Kenya. So that experience has really shaped my resiliency and also to speak up when it comes to women, right? And also empowerment and also the value of women in the society. [4:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=273s) And looking at also the tech world, we've seen that women are not really well represented. Even when you look at the percentage of women being employed in such occupations are very less compared to women. There was a time in my team of over 20-something people. I was the only, I was, it was only two women out of all the men. So you can imagine the imbalance when it comes to even recruitment. They don't want to recruit women. They prefer to recruit men because they feel maybe for men, they are more resilient. I don't know. But now what does it do to the women that needs to be empowered, they also need to get a job, they also need to have a sense of livelihood, and also to train in such, in now the AI and all the tech jobs that are coming, we really need to speak that equal or more women are given those opportunities to also be part of this kind of jobs. [5:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=338s) **Sacha:** Yeah, and I want to touch upon that. You initially thought that your, the job at Sama that I was referencing earlier was about language translation. Yeah. And then you discovered that it's not really a true nature. How does, did that impact you emotionally? And do you think that it was a deliberate decision to mislead the employees? [6:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=361s) **Guest:** Yeah, absolutely. I would say the job itself, when we're going to start from the very most beginning, I have a lot of issues even with the recruitment itself. I, someone reached out to me and was like, there's a job, translation job, that was brought through the Nigerian embassy for Hausa speakers, because I'm a native Hausa speaker from Nigeria, and I should send my CV, which I did. And after then, we went for the interview. And for the interview, I was asked to translate a Bible first from English to Hausa. And the guy who even did the interview for the Hausa language test, didn't even know Hausa language itself. He was an Igbo guy. I was wondering, are these people really serious about this? Because I could just say blunders, and then I would still be employed, because the guy is not even aware of what Hausa language is. [7:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=426s) But at some point, I'm like, okay, maybe they know what they're doing. But that is to show that even through the recruitment, there's a lot of deception that comes with the job. And I remember they were like, okay, you know, I asked them, what does this job mean? And they say, you're just going to moderate, you know, you review contents from Hausa language to English, and just confirm if that's okay. And also, you are going to translate some of the contents, and they are going to be a written text. So it didn't raise any alarm. And as of then, when I received my job offer, it was written content moderator. So when I went to Google to check, it just said reviewing contents. As of 2019, there was no explicit explanation of what content moderation was, because the definition was just review, review, rewrite. Like, it was just a basic, like an English translation of what moderation is. But we know that when we started doing this work, it was more to it than just reviewing. [8:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=493s) There was no more to it than reviewing. And when we started the job as well, we were given a non-disclosure agreement, never to disclose what we were doing, the kind of work we were doing, the kind of job we were doing. And as of then, we knew that it was Facebook, but then we didn't know the exact thing we were going to do. So they were just going in cycles, you know. So when you see this, you know, it's just really everything was just happening so fast, but you couldn't really pick point that, okay, this is the exact thing I was going to do. And after signing the non-disclosure agreement, they now started doing the most, like the most sensitive contents now in the training, because it was a two, three weeks training. And we signed a non-disclosure agreement barely one week into the training. So the training most was around hate speech, you know, all those written bullying, whatever. But now when it comes to suicide, graphic content, child abuse and all that, they were later in the training. [9:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=559s) So we didn't even understand what we were getting ourselves into. While we accepted to do the job, we only knew it's a language-based job. And as of that time, we had even the South African content moderators, Uganda, Somali, Kenya, Uganda, I've mentioned Uganda, Burundi. So there was a diverse team. [9:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=588s) **Sacha:** And AI systems, they rely heavily on human moderators like you to filter, you know, these kind of content. It's like a two-part questions that I have here. So first one is, what exactly then is content moderation? And then what do you think big tech companies like Meta fail to understand about the long-term psychological costs that this work entails? [10:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=618s) **Guest:** I wouldn't say they don't know. They know but chose to ignore because there's no one who would see the kind of contents we've seen, even if it's just for an hour, even if it's just for 10 minutes or five minutes, and would not acknowledge the fact that this causes harm to one's mental and physical health. It's absolutely impossible. And we've seen it is also in the U.S. and all that where moderators also have sued Facebook for the same. So ignorance can't be one of those issues, but it's a capitalist world. So they tend to look for the profit, where they will get more profit, and ignoring the workers' plight and also ignoring the basic needs. Because at first, Meta is even denying responsibility and even knowing us. They claim that they don't know us. [11:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=682s) We are not their employees. We never worked for them. We worked for summer and all that. And mind you, when we work into the summer premises, the job itself, we action all the jobs and everything that we do while at work, except for our breaks, is on the Facebook platform, which we call SRT. Immediately you go to work, you log into the Facebook platform. That is when now the reported content start coming to your queue, and then you start actioning those content. So when there's a shutdown in their services, or they have internet interruptions, or they have technical issues, automatically we're unable to work for hours. And they keep telling us we've flagged it to Facebook. We're waiting for them to rectify. So during that period, we just hang around. [12:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=744s) There's nothing for us to do. So how can they claim that Sama is our employee? Because Sama is just there to pay our salaries, to do those admin work. But the main work that we do is for Facebook. And hence, they can deny the fact that they are not aware of the mental health distress that this kind of work does. And also, it even destroys the workers' lives. We've had what they call workplace counselors, which is mental health counselors. And even while we were in court, Sama keep claiming that, you know, we've provided these guys with mental health care. They have counselors and all that. So why are you providing counselors if you claim you are not aware that there's a mental health issues? If I should be in a supermarket selling groceries, would you provide a mental health counselor? [13:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=805s) Because you know it's not related. So why are you providing mental health counselors to now and making it compulsory that at least once a week, every moderator must see a counselor? [13:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=823s) **Sacha:** So outside of that, what immediate change do you think companies should make to protect moderators' well-being? [13:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=835s) **Guest:** First of all, I would be like transparency. Because if I had known this kind of job I would do, I wouldn't have even accepted it. Like right now, not everyone would like to be a surgeon. Even as a medical doctor, some would not like to be a surgeon. Even as a doctor, not everyone would like to be an army or a soldier, you know, or a police officer because guns are involved. So they took away our choice to make a decision. And that's the main thing because if I am aware that, okay, I want to be a surgeon, I'm going to expose to blood and all that, I already know I'm prepared for it. And I'm going to take up any challenge that comes with it. But unfortunately, moderators are not given that option. And then you are ambushed. The moment you just get onto your computer, you see a whole thousands of the most toxic thing you can ever imagine on the internet. [14:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=897s) And then you are not even prepared for it. Secondly, I would say the training is inadequate. Because of course, you lied when employing. So even during the training, you don't really want to expose those real, real issues to the employees in the fear of them to run away even during the training. So what do you do? You show them the least toxic content. You put them in black and white. So they don't even understand how severe these jobs are. And then even when you get to the job now, you're given an NDA, which means you can never disclose to anyone, not even a doctor when you are at a point of death because you're scared of going to jail. So these are all the issues that significantly contributed to moderators deteriorating mental health while doing the job. Because if those things were not in place or like the NDA was not in place, things like transparency was in place, then the moderator had made a conscious decision and would seek for adequate help. [16:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=967s) And also the employer should also provide adequate mental health evaluation. Such jobs like a police officer, you can't just give them a gun. I'm sure they are being evaluated to find out. Are they mentally stable to really handle guns? And handle such toxic contents, not contents, but situations that are defacing their job. But for us, we were not evaluated. So even if you were predisposed to depression, committing suicide, you are predisposed to mental health illnesses. You were not even tested to feel like you're fit for this job. Because some people might be prone or predisposed to mental health issues based on their family history, their own childhood, and whatever, which might easily be triggered and also get severe when they start being exposed to such contents. Those were not provided. [17:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1029s) And if that will be provided, that will be excellent, I would say. And also profile, making the job a professional job. Because as it is, I've worked for content moderation for four years. And the moment I left, that is it. I cannot, you know, I cannot like make it a career where I can continue or I can grow in it because now no one wants to employ me. Because I was a former content moderator. They know, okay, this one is already damaged. They are going through trauma. They know, I cannot be a good employee or they've seen a lot right now. They can easily say no to certain things. So no one wants to employ me. So what does it do? It causes a lot of mental health. Also pressure on the workers because you know that once you go out there, you will not be able to get a job. People are not going to see you the same. They see you as mentally, you're a psycho. You know, you're feeling exposed to all that. [18:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1089s) **Sacha:** Wow. And you've emerged as a prominent voice advocating for the rights of content moderators across Africa. What are the biggest obstacles facing workers in this space? I'd just like to hear about that a little bit more. [18:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1109s) **Guest:** The biggest obstacles are many. One, which we've just talked about, the mental health care. Secondly, is the pay. The pay is significantly nothing because we're paid less than $2 per hour. And the same kind of job our colleagues are doing in the US, Europe, and on the other side of the world are being paid over $20 per hour. So you can see the discrepancy of payment. And also the way the workers are treated. The workers' rights are being taken away. It's forced labor because you are now forced to do what you don't want to do while doing the job. So just to give an example, we were made to action. You have to submit a job every 50 seconds. So you can imagine what that does to you because you are not, it's not in your own right to be like, okay, I just got a 20, 30 minutes video. I need to watch all this video to be able to see where the violations are. [19:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1174s) No, you were forced to submit it in 50 seconds. So what were you asked to do? We were asked to watch the first 15 seconds, skip to the middle, watch 15 seconds, go to the end of the video, watch 15 seconds, and check the thumbnail and submit. So you can imagine if it's a beheading from an ISIS video. What does that do to you as a human? Because we are not robots. This job is designed for robots because as a human with blood running through your veins, you can't just watch these videos like you're watching an animal, even an animal. Some people cannot even watch an animal being slotted, but there's a human being like you. And you know that this can also happen to you in a way because of the kind of world we're living in and then you're expected to just watch, you know, just action like you are just a robot. So it's first labor because you don't have a choice because after the 50 seconds, if you exceed, you are being penalized. [20:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1238s) You're being penalized for taking too much time to watch the video. And if you submit it and it's wrong, also you will be penalized. So either way you will be penalized. What does this do? You're on red flag. When you have a lot of them, you're on red flags. And then before you know, you can even lose your job because of this. So there's a lot of forced labor and also human trafficking. People, content moderators were brought in from different parts of Africa. Like I said, South Africa, Rwanda, Burundi, Nigeria, Somali, Kenya itself and other places. And these guys didn't know exactly what they are coming to do in Kenya. And when they got here, they weren't given work permits. They were working on visitors' passes. They were put in a house where you can't even relate with other people. So for the other company that also do the same, that we interacted with the workers, you know, you are brought in from your country. [21:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1304s) You are not given a work permit. And then you are put in a house. All of you are put in one apartment. And then they provide you a transport system, a transport plan where you are picked and dropped to the office. And you are told not to go out when it's not necessary. So that is a pure unfair statement to the workers because it's human trafficking. Because you trafficked them without them knowing exactly what they are coming to do. And then you took up even their right to associate with others, to move freely and all that. And they can be arrested at any point. The moment they are arrested, the company goes, you know, those back doorways, release them. Still, they don't have work permits. So I know guys that up to now are working. And it's been over two years. They are working without a work permit. So another issue I would also like to add is the issue of even the working conditions. [22:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1366s) These working conditions are not made for humans. They are made for robots or any non-living thing. But as a human, you can go for months without leaves. Yes, it's written you have 21 working days, leave in a year. But when you request for them, you are never given a leave days. So you are forced to work for six months, seven months without taking any breaks. And you can imagine what this does to your mental health considering the kind of work that we do because it requires more than even the 21 day working days. So the issues are a lot. They are really, really a lot. Some of them, the foreigners, their passports have been banned. They've been deported at the airport because they're like, okay, you've been in this country for over a year and you said you were working, but you don't have a work permit. That's illegal. They deport you. And what does that happen to your passport is being red listed. [23:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1427s) And then this also damages your own future, future explorations, future jobs and opportunities because anyone who checks your passport and you have a red stamp, like you've been banned and you've been flagged for, you know, being illegal in a country, it affects even your future in the next 20, 30 or even more years. And how, how much are you getting paid for that job? Less than $2. And you just work from hand to mouth. You just eat, you go home. Like you can't even save. You can't even have a career. You can't even like go to school to, to get more certificates and even, you know, upgrade your own career pattern. Just talk to the work and then you leave damaged. [24:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1479s) **Sacha:** And I've read that I think Meta and other tech giants have shifted now. Their search for content moderators away from, from Kenya and following these legal challenges that we're talking about, what are the potential risks of this relocation? And how do you see it impacting workers in, in different jurisdictions? [25:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1505s) **Guest:** I would say this has really impacted workers negatively, like really negative. Because when we, when we filed our case against Meta, around 240, the same number of, as ours, workers were brought to another company to do the job. And when the pressure was much, less than four or five months into them doing the job, they were also declared redundant as well. They always sat and taken back to their country. And now, uh, the same company moved to Ghana. Uh-huh. So we're from Ghana now. And, you know, they're hiding the workers. The workers have been given an NDA, of course. They can't even talk, but we know that they're there. And right now, even in Nigeria, we know that they are also there on the cover. But then, uh, what this does is it shows how weak this labor laws are in Africa. [26:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1570s) And that needs to change because regardless of wherever you are, let's say in Europe, because now the European Union has a whole law that protects the workers, independent workers, contract or whatever. So however you try to change your kind of work, you have to abide with the laws. And that's there. What is different in Africa, because right now you feel this pressure. They feel this pressure in Kenya. They moved to Ghana. From Ghana, they feel this pressure. They moved to Nigeria. They moved to South Africa. Um, you know, they moved to all those countries. And this, what does this tell us? That these guys, um, it's not that they don't have the money. They have the money to move the work because it means, you know, new infrastructure. You know, it means a whole new setup. They prefer to invest in that than to do the right thing. They prefer to invest in all those movements just in order to escape responsibility and also to do the right thing. [27:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1638s) And it doesn't cost them anything to do the right thing. We make, we help make, uh, this company's billions of dollars, billions of dollars at the expense of nothing. I think it's a call for the African Union, the African presidents to have a look, a deep look into this issue. So, as we also, the workers have responsibility to keep raising our voices and also to advocate. Because if we don't, then these guys will keep marching on us thinking they've won. But, um, it's a strategy for them. And, you know, the moment you, you begin to raise your voice, even your colleagues will be like, no, no, no, I mean, I don't want to be in problem. I don't want to be in trouble and all that. And then for you who have taken off the job, also you face your own challenges. And I will tell you as a woman in this space, it hasn't been an easy ride at all. It's always a challenge, especially now because of African culture, the way, you know, men feel superior than women. [28:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1705s) It's a marginistic society where, you know, even as you raise your voices, you have to deal with the big tech. You're dealing with the men. You're dealing, you're dealing with a whole lot of issues rather than even focusing on the main, main, um, goal and mission that we've set. Um, yeah, so part of the challenge is, I would say, it's, it's not an easy thing. You also lose even your freedom to do certain things because by the time you're on the stop spotlight, your life has already been predetermined in such a way that you're, you no longer live like a normal life that you used to live before. And also the risk that it is that you can go to a meeting and get attacked by these guys. Why are you guys doing that? You know, these people are bringing jobs to us. You guys are always attacking them. What's your problem? You know, if you can't do it, other people need the job. So these are the things people tell you to your face, but then we know what we're really fighting for. And for me, in as much as it's not easy, sometimes I tend to say it's over. [29:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1772s) Let me just, it's not, but I can't save the world. But then someone just calls you with all these issues again and you feel, no, no, no, we need to fight these guys. You know, these guys, we need, we need to, to share this and let the world know that this is happening. And we can't be used. The whole charade around AI, AI, we built AI, AI never built itself. So, and we are never acknowledged. If we keep quiet, it means AI really built itself, which is an absolute lie. People lost their life while building AI. We have colleagues that have committed suicide. And so how would we keep quiet and allow people make a mockery of the workers that do the job to say AI, you know, AI is just AI. No, there were no humans who trained AI, but we are the humans who trained AI. So what does this mean? It means that we need to raise our voices and also to bring people's attention to the fact that AI might live good now, but there's a lot of damage that it would do in the future. [30:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1845s) If this workers are not really taken care of, because if I decide to train AI in a very horrible way, what does this mean to the younger generation who are using it? They'll be exposed to more violence, more crimes, more sexual, violent contents, exploitations, and all that. But we did what we're supposed to do in as much as we weren't treated right. And also AI cannot replace humans. I always see that AI can never replace humans. If I trained the Facebook algorithm, in the next 5-10 years, you can tell me AI will be able to update itself. The world is changing, things are evolving, people's thoughts are also revolving, the way we humans behave. It's revolving every day. So would we still be using the AI that has been built today the same way 10 years later? No. It needs to be upgraded as we humans also revolve. [31:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1909s) It needs to be. So it means that humans will still be needed to do that. But if humans are not recognized that, okay, humans built this, how can we make them better? I think this should be the conversation. What are the gaps that are there? How can we make it better to benefit even the workers and also the society? [32:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1932s) **Sacha:** And I want to get back at an earlier point that you've made with Europe protecting some of its workers. You've testified at the European Parliament and you helped influence the platform Work Directive. I think that's the name that it's called. Yes. How did sharing your personal story in that space feel? But more importantly, what changes do you hope the directive will inspire globally? [32:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=1959s) **Guest:** Okay. I would say I felt it was a mixed feeling for me because a few months before then, I wouldn't even tell my parents I was working as a content moderator because I was given an NDA. And here I am in the European Parliament testifying on behalf of the many, many, many voiceless content moderators all over Africa and especially the ones in Kenya. It really felt like I broke out of a prison. But then it made me sad at the same time that the African Union is not talking about that because I wish I was in the African Union testifying, not in the European Union, in the European Parliament. I wish it's an African one where these are the people that are supposed to make these decisions in Africa. But regardless, I was immensely happy when the Direworkers Directive was passed because it means that when it starts there, it's going to come here eventually. [33:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=2029s) And these conversations need to keep going. And I know these companies are not in Africa, of course. They're either in the Europe, the US, Asia, and all that. So this directive also directly affects these big tech companies we're talking about for them to know that, OK, in as much as you go down to Kenya, down to Ghana, you know, you feel it's a remote place. I was able to stand in the European Parliament to talk publicly about this. So it means that whatever atrocities you move from your place of residence to go and perpetrate in other countries will eventually come out and it will be right at your face. So it was a very fulfilling moment for me that the Workers Directive was passed. And today, most of the workers are enjoying the benefits and more will still come. [34:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=2090s) I know there is a lot of conversation still around that. And, you know, it also makes other workers also because solidarity, of course. We had a lot of solidarity from these platform workers that I met in the European Parliament. And up to today, they've been so supportive. And we really needed that kind of support just for someone to be like, OK, you're doing the right thing. Keep it up. Keep pushing. Sometimes it's just the word you need to take the next step. And that has really, really supported me and also my team in a very big way. [35:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=2134s) **Sacha:** And you've also expressed interest in pursuing a PhD focused on mental health in tech, if I believe, if I can recall correctly. What are the key questions that you'd like to explore in that research? Have you ever, like, have you thought about that already? [35:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=2152s) **Guest:** I don't know. Yeah, I did. But do my questions keep changing? Because I think the issues, the issues are many, like I said. But I'm really interested to study and also research around care and treatment of mental health. And I've talked about also, like, finding out how this vicarious trauma happened, your support system and all that. Because it's a whole lot of issues, I would say. But I think these days now, I'm really thinking about the care and treatment of mental health illnesses, in content moderators, especially, and other tech workers. As I don't know if you've read, but we submitted our part of the evidence that was presented in court was a mental health report. The report that was made by the psychiatrists. [36:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=2216s) All the, almost all, I would say around 140 something petitioners, which are former Facebook content moderators, were evaluated. And I would say all had PTSD. Among others, anxiety, depression, all depends on the severity, of course. So after this, what next? Yeah, I know I have PTSD and all these other conditions. But after that, what next? So I think that is the question I would like to answer in my research. I would like to ask a PhD to see how I can develop a whole treatment plan for a model. I would call it a model for workers. Because while doing the job and after doing the job, I realized that it's constant. The trauma is constant. You know, it's different. When I look into my Facebook today, I just see a very horrible video. So I might decide not to go on Facebook. [37:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=2277s) I might decide to just deactivate my app and then get therapy. And that's over it. But for this, you watch it every day. Every day. Every time you just log into your computer, the eight hours you're at work, you watch those videos. The next day, the same. So for four years, like for me, that was what I was doing. So what does care mean to me? Because it won't be the same as someone who just watched. You know, I just rushed to therapy and I'm out. I just work on healing. You never heal. So how does this care would actually look like? And then the issue of even the family members, your loved ones, people you are with. Remember, we had NDAs. So I could just come home, just go to the shower and be crying or in my room. You know, people would be asking, what's wrong with you? Like, are you okay? Now you can't even say what you've seen. And then your family members begin to see you as, oh, this one, you are not okay. And then stigma sets in. [39:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=2341s) You know, most of us have been stigmatized by the closest. I had one of the content moderators shared with me. Even her husband, her mom, they would say she's just looking for attention. Like she's just being petty. And they won't really understand what mental health is. Because in Africa, mental health is the least thing to talk about. It's rather, we say it's spiritual, it's a spiritual issue than looking at it in a mental health aspect. But so content moderators' lives have been put in so much, so much, would I say, desperate situations. And also very, even after the job, because now you have to deal with your family. They don't understand how you feel. Sometimes just you need the help. They cannot help you because they don't even understand what is it that you want. You could attempt suicide and they'd be like, oh, what's even wrong with you? [40:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=2404s) The world is not ending. Like you had a job. You were being paid. So why do you want to kill yourself? Well, so the issues are a lot, but it really breaks my heart that the conversations always are around, you know, just AI, AI, AI, AI. Yeah, workers are going through a lot. Workers are going through a lot. But are we really, what can we do specifically to these workers to make them better and heal is mental health care. That's the only most important thing. Next would be the financial now aspect of it. Because if you are mentally not okay, you can't even keep a job. You are even, you are anxious. You can't put yourself together. The issues are just mostly when you look at it tied around the mental health cycles around your mental health. Because without that, you can't be able to function normally. No employer is going to employ you. [41:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=2465s) And even if you're employed after a month, you know, you are sleeping in the office because you have insomnia. You can't sleep at the night. At night, you'll be, you'll be fired after a few days because no employer will be like, okay, what are you doing? Or maybe you're paranoid. You can't be around men. Like me, I don't really feel comfortable. Yeah, because of the content you've seen. So you are paranoid. Your boss now is a guy. Maybe you're in an office. You can't stay two of you in the office. You just want to be. At least there should be an extra person. Why? Because the trauma is real. And these are the issues that people don't understand. And I wish that we all could talk about that and also try to see how we can assist you all, can assist us, the workers, to really recover and get our lives back. And also be able to blend back into the society because most of us cannot blend back into the society as we were before we started this job. [42:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=2529s) **Sacha:** Connor, thank you so much for sharing. And what I'd like to do is to give you the floor to share any last words with us today. [42:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=2543s) **Guest:** Okay. Thank you so much, Sasha, for this opportunity, I would say. I love to speak most of the time, but I do speak because I know there are thousands and hundreds of other workers that look up to me to speak on their behalf because they can't speak for themselves. And hence, I do that sometimes out of that passion, but not because I am in a good place also myself to do that. And I see it as a privilege and also an opportunity to raise these issues to the world and also to speak that we really need that help and that care. It's been almost two years that we lost our job. And most of us can't even get another job because we've been blacklisted. The mental health care, it means if last year you were diagnosed with PTSD and all these other mental health conditions, it means as of today, it has really deteriorated because you never got the care. [43:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=2617s) And things are not as easy as it is because when you don't have a job, it means you have to rely on other people. And as an adult, relying on other people means what? Your ego is bruised. Sometimes you ask you don't even get. You have to sleep hungry. You know, your rent is due. You have to beg people to pay or your landlord to give you time. You have kids. They have school fees to pay. Some have to drop out of school. And this is the horrible situation that most of these workers are facing. And we really like to urge that if there's any help, especially mental health care that could be offered to us, that would be really, really helpful to see how we can get our lives back and also blend back to the society. And also someday get a job and we should also live a normal life because most of us now are living a normal life. [44:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=2677s) You sleep at weird hours, 3, 4 a.m. At 6 a.m., you're awake like you don't have a sleep pattern. You're having nightmares. Your tantrums are up. Most of the time, you don't even know how you feel. Sometimes you just feel hopeless. You just want to end it. Okay, let this just end. At least I will be free. So it's a very bad situation and sad at the same time. We are in court currently and, you know, murder is taking us in cycles, claiming jurisdiction. We are not an employee. We are not in Kenya. We cannot be sued. So we are the Supreme Court and all that. It's been two years. And the trial itself is yet to start. So we have a very long, long way ahead of us when it comes to the petition. But we are strong and still pushing to see that we get justice. But before then, what happens to us? [45:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=2739s) Because we don't want to lose any one of us any longer to suicide or drugs and all that. Because this is what most of us tend to get into just to feel better. So we hope that we will get the help that we need. So thank you. [45:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=2759s) **Sacha:** Thank you so much for coming on today, Connor. It was really eye-opening. I really appreciate that. And everything you've shared with me today was really, really interesting. Thank you. [46:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA4BVkzkCs&t=2771s) **Guest:** You're most welcome.