# How Fuse is Transmuting the Energy Crisis into Opportunity Episode 2 of AI with Sach, a podcast hosted by Sacha Gucciardo in Montréal, features JC Btaiche, CEO and founder of Fuse, a fusion energy company based in Canada. JC Btaiche explains how Fuse uses pulsed power to pursue fusion energy, and why AI's growing appetite for electricity makes that work urgent. - Show: AI with Sach, hosted by Sacha Gucciardo in Montréal (https://aiwithsach.com/) - Episode: 2 - Published: 2024-07-24 - Length: 15 minutes - Language: English - Page: https://aiwithsach.com/episodes/02-how-fuse-is-transmuting-the-energy-crisis-into-opp/ - Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls ## Guests - JC Btaiche: CEO and founder of Fuse, a fusion energy company based in Canada (https://aiwithsach.com/guests/jc-btaiche/) ## Summary Sach talks with JC Btaiche, CEO and founder of Fuse, a Canadian fusion company. JC explains fusion in plain terms: reproducing the conditions inside the sun for a few nanoseconds. Fuse does this with what he calls a lightning bolt in a bottle, a pulse of stored energy released very fast to implode fuel. He traces his path from a childhood wish to build a fusion-powered rocket, helped by a father trained as a nuclear physicist, to a conviction that energy underpins human prosperity. He links GDP per capita to kilowatt hours available per capita. JC describes Fuse's milestones: the first licence in Canada for its type of fusion generator, a new pulse power machine tested over 100 shots, and early commercial revenue, which sets it apart from firms betting on energy in 7 to 10 years. He presents Titan, a pulse power driver that could make fusion facilities a third of the size, five times cheaper and twice as energy efficient. He frames the future through Vaclav Smil's energy ages, argues for tracking the rate of progress instead of a date, and notes the defence roots of the technology. He closes by inviting listeners to a live firing of Titan on August 8. ## Key takeaways 1. Fusion copies how the sun works: compress light atoms under extreme pressure, density and time until they fuse and release energy. 2. AI and quantum computing are pushing energy demand up sharply, which is why new energy sources matter to the AI story. 3. GDP per capita tracks the kilowatt hours available per capita, so energy access shapes prosperity, especially in emerging economies. 4. Fuse's approach, pulse power derived from decades of national lab research, aims to make fusion facilities smaller, cheaper and more efficient. 5. Some fusion companies bet on commercial energy in 7 to 10 years. Fuse sells technology and earns revenue today while maturing the science. 6. JC suggests judging fusion by its rate of progress and iteration rather than by a promised date. ## Verified quotes Each quote is checked word for word against the recording. > So it's like creating an artificial sun on Earth and putting it in a bottle. And you can imagine that's pretty challenging. And so for us, the way we create those conditions that are, you know, star-like or sun-like conditions, you know, we create essentially a lightning bolt. So essentially creating a lightning in a bottle that, you know, implodes a kind of fuel. > — JC Btaiche, AI with Sach episode 2, at 2:59 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=179s) > I think it's the last energy source that humanity will ever need. And especially as the technologies like AI, quantum or others are starting to wrap up, the world's demand for energy is growing exponentially. And so we believe fusion is going to be the answer for the energy needs for our civilization. > — JC Btaiche, AI with Sach episode 2, at 1:05 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=65s) > So I went to the Internet and started Googling, like, how to do interstellar travel in a timely manner. And, you know, there are some folks, really cool people who have spent a lot of time thinking about this and came up with this fusion-powered rockets. And so that's when I said, I want to build a fusion-powered rocket. > — JC Btaiche, AI with Sach episode 2, at 4:07 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=247s) > Even if you think basic things like GDP per capita, it's directly tied to kilowatt hour available per capita. So how do we kind of get the whole world to prosper? I think fusion and energy is at the core of, like, human prosperity. > — JC Btaiche, AI with Sach episode 2, at 5:04 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=304s) > taking a bet that in 7 to 10 years there's going to be commercial energy. And that's all that, you know, we're working very hard to get there as fast as possible, but we're making revenue today. And so we're building a sustainable business and maturing the technology to get to fusion energy eventually. > — JC Btaiche, AI with Sach episode 2, at 6:22 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=382s) > And why Titan really matters is it can make any next generation fusion facility based on the Titan technology at least one third the size or at least five times cheaper and doubles the energy efficiency. It was much more scalable as an approach. > — JC Btaiche, AI with Sach episode 2, at 7:18 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=438s) > Like there's the age of the like muscles, right? When we were using cows or our own, you know, muscles and humans to do work. And then we went into the chemistry time, right? Where the chemical energy era, we're trying to do, you know, combustion and railroad, just combustion and different, you know, different ways to generate heat and then through heat produce energy. > — JC Btaiche, AI with Sach episode 2, at 8:41 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=521s) > Because even if you think about, you know, fossil fuels, a lot of people talk about how bad they are for the environment, et cetera, which they definitely have lots of cons. But, you know, fossil fuels are also very useful to producing plastics, to producing different materials and molecules that are really, really useful for humanity and basic necessities. > — JC Btaiche, AI with Sach episode 2, at 9:29 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=569s) > Like if you wake up and you have more energy, right, then you don't have to worry about turning off the light or how much your compute power is. Like energy becomes a commodity that I think will have significant impact on like human flourishing, innovation, et cetera. > — JC Btaiche, AI with Sach episode 2, at 13:23 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=803s) > I think like what really matters here rather than like putting a date is actually measuring the rate of progress. But I think it took decades to get to some big milestones. But I've seen right now, especially with the surge of there's six billion dollar, over six billion dollar at this point announced publicly at least. > — JC Btaiche, AI with Sach episode 2, at 11:15 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=675s) > So there's really awesome technology that was built through national security and defense programs that, you know, it's time to commercialize. And I think FUSE falls in the same category where there's really amazing technology that is dual use by nature, you know, that will help safeguard humanity. > — JC Btaiche, AI with Sach episode 2, at 12:29 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=749s) ## Transcript Automatic transcript; speaker labels are automatic. [0:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=0s) **Sacha:** So today I'm thrilled to welcome a very special guest, JC, the CEO and founder of Fuse, a company that is accelerating the world's transition to fusion energy. JC has been leading Fuse since August 2019. Before Fuse, he founded Hestia Academy in March 2017, an online academy that offers a self-learning framework and a community of creators and mentors. Before this, JC spent six months at McGill University as a researcher working on multi-agent reinforcement learning. JC has been instrumental in driving the success of his ventures. Under his guidance, Fuse has been making significant progress in the field of fusion energy since its inception. JC, it's a pleasure to have you with me today. Welcome. [0:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=43s) **Guest:** Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me and happy to be here. [0:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=46s) **Sacha:** Can you please break down what Fuse is all about in a few words? [0:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=51s) **Guest:** Yeah, so Fuse, as you mentioned, is working on a mission to accelerate the world's transition to fusion energy. So fusion has been the holy grail for decades. It's an unlimited source of clean, abundant, safe and on-demand energy. I think it's the last energy source that humanity will ever need. And especially as the technologies like AI, quantum or others are starting to wrap up, the world's demand for energy is growing exponentially. And so we believe fusion is going to be the answer for the energy needs for our civilization. And at the same time, fusion is also very useful for national security and to make sure that the world remains in order and safe. And so we're also pretty proud to be supporting the race to be the leading country with the Western values to be the leader of fusion technology. [1:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=108s) **Sacha:** Awesome. And you touched upon it. So you're leading the race to go towards fusion energy. For most, fusion energy is pretty complex. It's a complex topic. Could you try to explain with very simple words what this is all about? [2:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=121s) **Guest:** Yeah, so, you know, fusion is essentially how the sun works, how the stars that you see shine bright in the sky. It's essentially all of that is fusion. It's essentially taking the lightest atoms in the universe. It makes it easier. You can do heavier things. But think of hydrogen, isotopes, deuterium, tritium, and under extreme conditions of pressure, density, and time, you know, compressing those particles to a point where they can fuse together. And then by fusing together, you know, the small loss of mass, if you remember the famous E equals MC squared equation, or the small loss of mass will create a huge amount of energy because C squared is the speed of light and it's a very large number. So essentially, the biggest challenge has been, you know, the sun has a pretty big weight and it's pretty heavy on Earth. How do we essentially create the same conditions but for a few nanoseconds is how much we can produce in a very, very short amount of time. And so we had to create these artificial conditions. So it's like creating an artificial sun on Earth and putting it in a bottle. [3:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=183s) And you can imagine that's pretty challenging. And so for us, the way we create those conditions that are, you know, star-like or sun-like conditions, you know, we create essentially a lightning bolt. So essentially creating a lightning in a bottle that, you know, implodes a kind of fuel. And that kind of fuel is being compressed and under extreme temperature, density, and for a short period of time, you know, confining and producing fusion. [3:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=209s) **Sacha:** Awesome. And what sparked your interest in fusion energy? Was there like a defining moment for you or like an experience that lets you down this path? [3:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=219s) **Guest:** Yeah. So, you know, growing up, my father's a nuclear-trained physicist. He ended up building a manufacturing plant. But, you know, so growing up, I was just fascinated by how the universe works. I was like, you know, people talk about galaxies and stars. I'm like, I want to go see a star and see if it's real, not just these photos look too good to be true. And then I realized and I asked my dad, how is this possible, right? Like, forget it. You're not going to go see Pluto or Saturn and come back, you know, it doesn't work like that. And, you know, I was pretty disappointed. So I went to the Internet and started Googling, like, how to do interstellar travel in a timely manner. And, you know, there are some folks, really cool people who have spent a lot of time thinking about this and came up with this fusion-powered rockets. And so that's when I said, I want to build a fusion-powered rocket. I wanted to learn about fusion and motivated me to sit in a classroom longer than I would have otherwise. And then at some point, I just kind of, when time came for college, I had done some, you know, research internships, very brief, you know, at university while still in high school, looking at plasma physics and trying to better build my technical knowledge. [4:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=286s) And then I realized that, like, energy, like, I was just going through the existential soul-searching process, like, how do I want to spend my life, you know? And then I was like, what are the biggest important problems for me to, like, spend time on that people are not, you know, paying as much attention to? And fusion was one of them. It was the building block for unlocking anything else. Even if you think basic things like GDP per capita, it's directly tied to kilowatt hour available per capita. So how do we kind of get the whole world to prosper? I think fusion and energy is at the core of, like, human prosperity. [5:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=318s) **Sacha:** That's very interesting. You've been at the head of FUSE since 2019. We've touched upon that. How has the journey been so far? And do you want to explain some of the milestones that you've reached so far? [5:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=333s) **Guest:** Yeah, I would say it's ups and downs. You know, it's been great. But overall, you know, very proud of the team and what we've accomplished. So in Canada, we're the first to be licensed to have the type of fusion generator we have. So we're proud to be the first one in Canada. We also just, you know, we proved a new novel pulse power machine. Lightning in a bottle. We have a new pulse power generator that we're very excited about that we just showcased and tested. Over 100 shots. And we're also, I think, the first fusion company to be actually doing work, supporting, you know, to be actually getting commercial traction immediately and generating revenue. Right. So I think you'll see a lot of fusion company out there that are taking mostly a bully in bed, even though sometimes they may not see it, but or taking a bet that in 7 to 10 years there's going to be commercial energy. And that's all that, you know, we're working very hard to get there as fast as possible, but we're making revenue today. And so we're building a sustainable business and maturing the technology to get to fusion energy eventually. [6:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=399s) **Sacha:** Great. I've heard a lot about Titan, which is one of your machine that you are building. Can you shed some lights on why it's significant today? [6:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=409s) **Guest:** Yeah. So, you know, Titan is essentially a pulse power driver, which means storing a lot of energy and then releasing it as fast as possible. So think of a giant battery, you know, that's the energy stored. If you can release that as fast as possible, then you get very high power. E equals P over T, right? So same amount of energy, you release it faster, more power. And so that's what essentially Titan is designed to do. It's designed to deliver the energy required for fusion to occur. And why Titan really matters is it can make any next generation fusion facility based on the Titan technology at least one third the size or at least five times cheaper and doubles the energy efficiency. It was much more scalable as an approach. So we believe it's one of the core building blocks to be able to build, you know, large fusion facilities. And so we're very excited to have de-risked one of the core technology risks to make fusion repetitive and cost effective. [7:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=466s) **Sacha:** And you've talked a little bit about the future of energy and what the industry will look like. So how or more so in what ways do you envision fuse to revolutionize this energy sector? And can you paint a picture of what the future looks like? [8:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=485s) **Unknown:** Yeah. [8:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=489s) **Guest:** I think if you look at the world in general, let's take a step back and think about energy and history, right? Like if you think about like the world and civilization, there's a really good book by Vaclav Smil, maybe misspelling his name, but it's called Energy and Civilization. And he talks about those the phases of energy that humanity has gone through and how progress and innovation has been directly tied to like energy ages. Like there's the age of the like muscles, right? When we were using cows or our own, you know, muscles and humans to do work. And then we went into the chemistry time, right? Where the chemical energy era, we're trying to do, you know, combustion and railroad, just combustion and different, you know, different ways to generate heat and then through heat produce energy. And I think now we're entering the, you know, I think there's a point in time where we're going to enter the atomic era where we're harnessing the power of the atom, whether it's fission fusion or whatever way to actually unlock a new age for civilization. [9:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=561s) So I think looking back in the world in 2040, 2050, I hope that we've unlocked the atomic age and we're learning to harness the power of the atom, right? Because even if you think about, you know, fossil fuels, a lot of people talk about how bad they are for the environment, et cetera, which they definitely have lots of cons. But, you know, fossil fuels are also very useful to producing plastics, to producing different materials and molecules that are really, really useful for humanity and basic necessities. And I think at some point we're going to learn how to harness the power of the atom and just unlock a new age and a new era of innovation for all of us. And I think from a macro scale as well, if you look at the emerging world, right, so like if you look at the Southeast Asia, Africa, et cetera, like their energy needs are starting to grow significantly. And as I had mentioned earlier, GDP per capita, so like the economic strengths of a country is directly tied to how much the country has energy available. [10:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=622s) So I think as we, you know, as we, you know, pass forward into the future, there's going to be a time where, you know, we're going to learn and actually adopt harnessing the power of the atom. And I think FUSE wants to be at the forerun and help enable that future. And so we've got like growing machines that we're building that help us first become a sustainable business and also a mature critical technology required to eventually get to fusion. [10:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=651s) **Sacha:** And when do you anticipate this fusion or new type of energy, may it be fusion, fission, any type of energy that, when do you anticipate this to become viable or accessible to more people? [11:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=666s) **Guest:** That's a trillion dollar question. I mean, fission works is a question more regulatory and construction, like it's a project management problem or then like engineering or science. I think like what really matters here rather than like putting a date is actually measuring the rate of progress. But I think it took decades to get to some big milestones. But I've seen right now, especially with the surge of there's six billion dollar, over six billion dollar at this point announced publicly at least. So there's probably more than that committed to private fusion companies. So what I care about is measuring what's the rate of progress, the rate of iteration. And I'm confident that sometime within the next decade or two, we'll be able to, you know, to get to realize and harness the power of the atom. [11:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=711s) **Sacha:** And FUSE signed a contract recently with the SBIR. I'm not sure if that's how you should pronounce that. But how would you say this contract would influence the direction of FUSE's work and like its future contribution to the energy sector? [12:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=727s) **Guest:** Yeah. So, you know, the technology that we're working on is based on innovation or decades of research that Sandia National Lab has done in the U.S., which obviously Sandia's mission is to bolster the national security. But as we've seen, right, the national ignition facility at Livermore is the first facility to demonstrate scientific break even for fusion. Right. So there's really awesome technology that was built through national security and defense programs that, you know, it's time to commercialize. And I think FUSE falls in the same category where there's really amazing technology that is dual use by nature, you know, that will help safeguard humanity. You know, we're very proud to be strengthening our, you know, national security and world order while, you know, continuing on the path of fusion energy. And it's the same technology path. So there's no, there's no, we're not getting distracted. It's actually in line with where we want to go. [13:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=788s) **Sacha:** And who do you think stands to benefit the most from, for example, FUSE's work in the short or even the long term? [13:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=799s) **Guest:** I mean, in the long term, hopefully every single human will start to benefit from that. Right. Like if you wake up and you have more energy, right, then you don't have to worry about turning off the light or how much your compute power is. Like energy becomes a commodity that I think will have significant impact on like human flourishing, innovation, et cetera. And hopefully it will impact at the micro scale. Every single human being was like waking up in the morning and not having to worry about electricity. [13:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=825s) **Sacha:** Yeah. So what's next for FUSE? What are you guys looking forward in building? I want to give you like just a room for making us dream, I guess. [13:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=836s) **Guest:** Yeah. So we're pretty excited to continue building larger machines. We'll be live streaming one terawatt firing of full scale Titan with a wire array. So actually doing an implosion. And that will be all live streamed. So on August 8th. So you can go on the YouTube link online and registers and have a live stream of us firing for the first time. And where there's something like a generator of this kind at this scale gets fired. So yeah, I hope whoever listens to this gets to tune in and get a chance to see us firing Titan. [14:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=870s) **Sacha:** That's cool. Definitely tune in. And as we wrap up, could you share what keeps you personally motivated and excited about the future of FUSE? [14:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=880s) **Guest:** This is just the mission. You know, just waking up and knowing that what you do matters. And then there's people who actually care about it. And a team that's working really hard. So I'm very grateful and proud of the team that we have and also the mission that we're after. [14:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=893s) **Sacha:** Great. Thank you so much, JC. It was great talking to you. [14:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBjTBsnkls&t=897s) **Guest:** Awesome. Yeah. Thank you.